Ep 3 - LIVE - If Just Stop Oil is the start of the marketing funnel to Save the World then we've got a problem...

Join the Tediophobes and friends as we recreate the Firehouse Salon that Howard Gossage ran with his gang in the 1960s. This time the goal of this workshop is to explore ideas of how to help activists sell the message of how we can Save the World, (small goal for a Thursday afternoon ; >)

Transcript

Welcome to the Firehouse Salon. I'm Sara Lek Gossage, and I'm joined by my cohost, Ashley Polak.

Thanks, Sarah. in this episode, we're doing something a bit different, but something that we're planning to do each month, and that is a Firehouse Salon Live.  So this recording It's from the fourteenth of December when we ran a LinkedIn audio event.  So, wonderful to bring a a brilliant panel of guests together to recreate the vibe of the firehouse.  Our goal was to strike up conversations and to help each other to figure out solutions. So not about People in conflict, too much of that in the world. This is about people coming together from different backgrounds to  📍 to think about how we can change the world. 

So over to the   Our inspiration is taken very much from, a sixties ad man called Howard Loch Gossage who had an agency in North Beach in San Francisco. So He brought together in his firehouse office a salon  of thinkers from, student rebels to members of the Grateful Dead, to Buckminster Fuller, to Tom Wolf, to Marcia McLuhan, and they would discuss and debate ways that they could change the world.  And so in our in our tiny way, the objective of this is to bring together people to chat about how can we how can we tackle an issue that we face in the world. And it seems only fitting that the starting point of this discussion would be about  saving the world.

Start small, basically. Um, so,  uh, I wrote an article last week very much with the help of James, my writing partner, for The Drum. And the headline was due to be, it got changed, , if Just Stop Oil is the start of the marketing funnel for saving the world, then we've got a problem.  And so what I was proposing in that article was the challenge of the objective of activism to stir action to create noise to get people to think. And the risk that potentially  that causes people to feel guilty and instead gets them switched off from the from the message. 

And this is something that Howard Gossage very much did in the these, when he was involved in the birth of the environmental movement,  when he created with his writing partner, Gerry Mander, a campaign to save the Grand Canyon from being flooded for profit. And he said that you you can't make people feel guilty. You have to give them recourse to do something about it. And so to the lovely group of people I've got here to talk about this,  topic today,  I'm Ashley Polak. I think you know who I am.

 Katie, I'm gonna pass it to you just to introduce yourself first of all. Oh, hi.  My name is Katie. I'm been working mainly in communications for most of my working life, and I am also a member of Extinction Rebellion.  I will say as well that I give my love generously to any movement, so I have worked with just up oil as well.

I'll align with anyone who Who does indeed want to save the world? I'm very invested in that in that purpose.  

Thank you so much, Katie. And in order on my screen here, Austin?  Yeah.

Hi there. I'm, uh, Austin. I'm an independent PR and marketing guy. I began my career in media relations, but over time, I've expanded into marketing as well. I'm I'm particularly interested in human behavior. I do quite a bit of reading around the subject. Big fan of people like Daniel Pink and Richard Shoten. Richard Chataway, Rory Sutherland, all those sort of, Um, writers, and, also, one of my longtime clients is Canvas eight, who specializes in in human behavior and what motivates us and how we act and all those kind of things.

Uh, to be completely honest, I'm not someone that's terribly well informed on this subject that we'll be discussing today, but perhaps that's the point 

and that's my perspective.  thank you so much. Great.  Ian.

Hello. How are you? I'm Ian. I'm twenty three. I've just finished a master's degree, in international relations, I actually had my graduation ceremony yesterday.  I have been involved with,  Justapoil in the past. I'm an active member the Labor Party, and I'm currently volunteering  for, uh, Christian Aid on the loss and damage campaign.  I'm excited to to speak to everyone today about activism, and it's a should be good should be a good discussion. Thanks, Ian.

Hi. Yeah. I'm James King. I'm a fellow TVFO with Ash. I'm primarily a writer for film and TV and now radio since me and Ash,  wrote and produced the BBC Full documentary about Howard earlier this year.

 I'm also a consultant for the film industry, doing work from producing film festivals for governments like Canada and Hong Kong, all the way through to working on are house releases,  we sort of talked about the purpose of this salon and I think a big part of it was to sort of explain explore and expand on a lot of the theories that Howard gosage came up with in the 1960s that have been inspiration and obsession of mine for the past seventeen, eighteen years,  and seeing how we can apply them to contemporary contexts, such as, the climate crisis, which Ash so eloquently  discussed in his article last week. Which you mostly hope half rope. Anyway, we'll we'll we'll get we'll stay right from that. Right, James. 

Ghost writing, Ash. You're not supposed to mention the ghost.  Alright. James Curtis. Yes.

Hi. I'm James Curtis.

I'm a financial modeler. I work The startup seems helping, uh, startups get investment, and I'm also a cofounder of Radical Engineers. Uh, we're a charity that matches volunteer technologists with System changing organizations like charities, uh, involved, especially, uh, including those involved in the environmental, uh, world. So, um, yeah. So that's That's my base.

That's my background.  Thank you so much. Thank you. 

So the way that I wanna start  is by proposing  my point of view on this topic that I kinda encapsulated in the article, And then to get everyone to give their perspective 

on the challenge, I guess. Here's the question. How can we enable activism to be communicated effectively to save the planet.

The thing I said in my article was, what I was calling for was more nuance.  So my my concern was and it was triggered by a form of activism that happened where I live, which is in Spain, in Ibiza. And, Extinction Rebellion did an action, which was about the incompatibility of a jet set lifestyle with the environmental challenges we face.

So they defaced the,  Pasha cherries. They graffitied on a on a yacht, disrupted the golf course, did something around private jets, and it was all to draw attention to this this issue. And It got me thinking, like, I get that strategic, but it still made me feel guilty. And it made me think about just stop oil and the kind of blocking the streets and that kind of behavior. So I'm calling for more strategy and creativity in the environmental call to arms, for quality over quantity, creativity over chaos innovation over irritation. 

And the objective is to get people how do we get people invested in the process and enable  put positive change both on a personal level and on, I guess, a governmental level, uh, an international level. 

Who would like to give their perspective on on this topic? 

 I'm happy to to leap in. Okay. And I suppose, You know, I've been thinking so much about this since you invited me to join and I've been speaking to some friends from Extinction Rebellion.  And I suppose some of the challenges for me is actually  I think at the start there's a There's a problem where are we trying to create guilt or do you just feel guilty anyway because you know how enormous the problem is? And so sometimes, again, the messenger is not necessarily always responsible for the message,  and  I I suppose for me, you know, extinction rebellion, um, talks a lot about we're not here to be liked.

That irritation versus innovation,  We get people speaking, and that is fundamental to being able to make any change. And I would argue that what Extinction Rebellion has done, I I think is brilliant, and obviously I'm going to say that because I'm part of it.  And in some ways when you're starting to talk about guilt and all, we should we should think about, you know, taking people with us. Just thinking you're in a way you're trying to guilt us into doing less or doing things differently. And it's very hard to come up with something that's genuinely going to make meaningful change on something as massive as the The future of living crisis in which we find ourselves.

So there's a lot where I feel that the movement has done incredible amounts of Sacrifice and creativity. I mean, I would say it's one of the most creative, visually appealing, um, protests that we've seen for a long, long time. You know, nonviolence is at its core, accountability is at its core, so it has lots to commend it. Um, and And I I don't know that for me, it feels a bit of a tussle. By being a participant, it's not like I don't feel guilty about all the things I've done previously, the things I still do, um, but it has helped shift my understanding, my behavior, exposed me to new ideas. 

And so, um, I'm not sure whether that's quite an answer, but I would just say that, you know, maybe we shouldn't necessarily shy away from making people feel guilty. That maybe Guilt can be a motivator. It's only one of the motivations for me,  for protesting.

Katie,  to give some context, I found very interesting when I spoke to you you described to me personally You you got a point in your own life where you felt you had to enact change in your own life. We sort of talked about some of the steps you've taken as well as joining and protesting. I don't know if you wanna talk about that at all because I found it very inspiring.

Oh, thank you. That's very generous of you to say. Yeah. I've I've definitely been sort of low waste For a long time. Um, as I've been part of the movement, I've definitely moved, um, further away from animal products.

Uh, I definitely consume less. I'm not I Very ready by anything new. I I gave up flying. I had been a I've been part of frequent flyer programs mainly because my first role was Involved in private wealthy, the jet set people that you're talking about. That was thirty odd years ago, uh, twenty twenty five years ago in New York.

So I feel like in a way I'm atoning for my own previous behavior. And I suppose,  yes. So I have made Big,  decisions personally about how I'm going to behave, not having children. Part of that decision was around,  the The challenge of the of the climate crisis. 

So I have made personal things, and I suppose sometimes  When I'm having conversations with my friends and family who I love and and I would like love to thrive and have enjoyable full lives, Sometimes it is challenging when you're hearing that they're not necessarily making any concessions in how they live. And I think if you're not gonna protest,  Maybe the onus is on maybe some of the people who don't want to protest to live differently because, definitely, I will say that people expect perfection of us. Um, it's certainly some of the the the criticism we got. 

That's fascinating. I would love to come back to that point because that immediately made me think about things. So let's move on. Does someone want to be picked or happy to jump in? 

I'll jump in just quickly. I think just to sort of come back to the article, I think what was the main crux of your article, Ash, was, um, to do with, you know, guilt is in any form of, you know, activism or charity, I think that's, you know, a a very valid sort of talking point. Um, I think one of the main things to sort of challenge that point on was  techniques that create guilt but don't necessarily give those people that you're eliciting guilt in recourse. And I think that was sort of one thing we were looking to the past on was, You know, what Howard very successfully did was think how can I involve these people and give them a very sort of tangible, often very simple Form of recourse so that they can feel like they're actually able to make a change?  You know, sometimes guilt without recourse just leaves people feeling depressed An alienated  and and so futile, I guess.

Um, so just to bring it back to, like, the Grand Canyon campaign,  What he did, which was, you know, it seems  kind of normal in a sense now, but was fairly revolutionary at the time, Was that he incorporated coupons into that campaign, which is something he'd been doing  throughout his advertising career, was this sort of very  pioneering form of interactive advertising. And but when it came to the Grand Canyon campaign, there was not just one coupon, but they created a series  of postage paid coupons so that people can just clip them out of the page and send them off to a series of elected officials, one to the president, You know, two to their senators, and all, you know, all people really needed to do was just sign the coupon  and post it. Um, and, yeah, it was so successful that within a couple of weeks, congress had done a complete u-turn on the project, which was a done deal, Right. You know, I can't stress enough that actually  it was going ahead at that point in time that, you know, the the debates in the House were over, Um, but the outcry from the public and the engagement from the public was so overwhelming that that that they had to do a complete u-turn on the project, and that's what ultimately saved the from being flooded for profit.

Um, can I to keep us the time? I'm sorry to cut in, but just Are you advocating that coupons would be solving the world now? Or so he was doing I I you know, I think that analog coupons I mean, Has anyone done it recently?  No. I'm I'm actually always banging on about post because no one ever receives good post. 

Um, post these days is kind of, you know, limited to electricity bills or eye water at large.  So, you know, it it would be interesting for someone to try and, you know, revert back to an old analog postal campaign, but That's not really how people consume things, you know, people don't consume print media in the way they would. Um, I think the key point is more just Involving people in a solution, which you know, I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on every technique used by climate activists at the moment, But you know, I can single out a couple of examples that I feel maybe were less effective such as you know, throwing paint at, you know, prized paintings and museums. I think The backlash from the public on that was not a backlash to do with people disagreeing with the cause. You know, I think most people broadly  apart from some, you know, fringe elements would agree that, you know, Climate change is a clear and present danger and something they all want to be part of changing.

Um, but that I would argue was a technique that didn't make people feel included in a solution and they sort of had this  abstract displaced anger,  Um, that maybe was a bit more counterintuitive to the original intent. Okay. I think Oh, sorry. So sorry. Sorry.

I'm gonna just keep keep this structured. Sorry. Sure. Yeah. Each other.

Austin, your perspective, but your perspective rather than getting into  coming back on what James had just said, I think would be interested  for taking a step back. Yes. Well, actually, I was gonna make, um, I think it I think it does does link in because I think that is interesting. Uh, it may it occurs to me, like, where is the line between the attention that rightfully It's it's hard to get these days and is obviously needed as Katie mentioned. But then also the alienation side of things where you cross a line where it has the opposite effect of what was What was intended?

I mean, my view is and I I must admit that, uh, as I said at the start of this recording, I'm not  terribly, uh, informed on this, and I think that's partly because I find it a little bit intimidating. Um, it just seems so huge. Um, seems like people that are are far more intelligent and far more qualified haven't quite been able to find the way forward and what chance do I understand. Having said that, I have this feeling of, uh, yeah,  underlying belief that we're heading for disaster and somebody's probably not gonna come along, And save us. But then my perspective is looking at it from a a human behavioral standpoint, and it's my, um, opinion that the human race is Perfectly evolved just for a different time.

Um, I'm not sure we're very good at looking too far beyond caring for ourselves and our immediate communities, which would have been our way of living and surviving for many thousands of years. I fully appreciate that I may be wrong there. Um, it was amazing how well people, Uh, the majority excluding certain politicians and civil servants, uh, followed COVID restrictions, for example. And I think a big part of that Was well established behavioral bias biases such as, you know, our nature to follow on another social proof, the shame of not adhering,  Um, to, uh, certain rules and guidelines, uh, habits, uh, being able to see the action, affect linkage, and and so on. Um, one point I was gonna pick up, and I know I don't wanna hijack your the structure, Ashley, but, um, it It was just mentioned there that James, the the whether it is putting, um, uh, paint on pictures, what kind of impact that has on people watching.

I think there's a point of where is the line because, uh, for me personally, the line is and I'm not sure. I'm sure we've all seen the news environmental protesters allegedly blocking ambulances doing protests. And I have no idea whether that's true or not. I I don't think it can be, surely not. Um, but I I have no idea of the truth there because that's my  Did you knock your mute on?

That was a lovely point.  Oh, apologies. Once I get to, I might have done. Um, yes. So, uh, yeah.

Uh, us us as humans don't like we We we don't like feeling guilt, and we can either avoid that by just ignoring the issue and sort of seeing acts like that and saying, well, I don't agree with that at all because, Uh, it's kind of like a a valid excuse to sort of step out rather than acting on the guilt to do something to stop the disaster that is inevitably coming.  You know? So sorry. That's my bit convoluted, but, um, yeah, that's my my two cents to throw into the ring. I love that.

No. I made, uh, made notes on that about, Um, I mean, I think it's fascinating what happened in COVID and how I mean, and also incredibly and I'm not gonna dominate here, but sad how behavior could change so quickly and then return so quickly back again. But anyway right. Uh, Ian, you good to go? Yes.

I'm good to go. Yeah. I was I was about to jump in myself. Um, so just on a on a on a couple of other there's quite been quite a few points of discussion. Um, let me start off with the whole guilt thing.

A bit of guilt, I think,  isn't necessarily a bad thing, you know,  um, because it's The guilt is what makes you realize, oh, well, actually, you know, things have do have to change. Um, and that can happen in every  Part of your life, whether it be, you know, professionally at work, you see someone working more than you and you, you know, think to yourself, actually, you know, you feel a bit guilty saying you could work a bit more. It's a bit of a go. I I don't know. I don't think it's a bad thing in itself. 

Um, let okay. Let's talk about the soup on the paint  Stuff. I think so that wasn't necessarily  I think that was more of a message,  By Joseph Boyle. Uh, the soup on the paint was more to do with demonstrating that, you know, society cares more about what happens to A object with no feelings at all, then, you know, that that wasn't even damaged, by the way,  The Van Gogh painting, but it was fine. It wasn't even damaged because you had a a glass sheet covering it.

Um, so we care more about that than suffering caused by climate change in other countries, the people, and people losing their homes, people not being able to eat because of drought. You know, it's it's it was I think that was more of the the point of that stunt, if that makes sense. Because they knew that that was I I'm not mean to cut in, but just if I'm hearing you correctly, it's a very complicated message to convey.  Because when I'm hearing it from your perspective, it's an act That's a very simple act, but with quite a complicated message to convey. Of course.

Yeah. Yeah. It is.  Yeah. But I think I think that was kind of the the aim of it of of that stunt in particular.

Yes. Um, can I ask a question, Ian? Sorry. I am jumping in, and I'm breaking my own rules. But then I think Austin started, so let's carry on.

I was really fascinated by You're just graduating. Right? I'm in I'm forty three. And I look at kind of what Greta Thunberg was doing, and I have a perspective on it from the perspective of someone who's, I guess, established some degree of my life. Um, I'm really interested why you got involved in just stop oil and and where you're I mean, you're studying, uh, politics.

So, yeah, I think it'd be interesting to everyone to to understand a bit more about how that started for you and maybe the context of what's going on in the world right now. Yeah. No. Just just to slightly create, I'm studying inter or I studied international relations. Um, is pretty much the same thing, but on a on a national scale.

So, uh, what got me into just the portal? Well, I mean, I've I've known for a long time. I mean, you know, before I was approached by just the Paul that, you know, the The world is, um, a very bad place in terms of the climate crisis, and it that it is indeed a crisis.  I got involved because one day, some people approached me. I was, you know, sitting in a park with a friend, and some people from just the poll came over with a leaf Lewis and Sadar, we're having this talk next week.

You should join, you know, if you care about the environment.  Um, so, you know, I I thought to myself, why not? I mean, it's Obviously, a a massively important issue. So I went there and,  um, I mean, I was pretty much on board with with  Well, everything they were saying in terms of, you know, it's something that we need to act on immediately. And considering We form parts of the global north, which is, you know, which is currently, um, exacerbating the issues. 

Climate suffering and the global stuff. We we have a duty, a responsibility  to do something about it.  And, of course, you know, at the start, I had a a few apprehensions because I'd, you know, seen the,  uh, well, Footage of of, uh, roads being blocked, etcetera. And, you know, I was I felt uneasy about ambulances being blocked, but, you know, the official policy of Justice O'Poyle is to allow ambulances to go through. Now  if if ambulances are blocked, that's because activists, If they are from just the poll, by the way, because they might not be.

Um, if they are from just the poll, then they are breaking protocol, and they shouldn't be doing that. But, um, you know Right.  The the structural message from the organization, well, this is peaceful. We let ambulances through. We make sure that we cause as little harm as we can Yeah. 

Then that that, you know, that signal to me that that's that's fine. I mean, that's I've I've got I'm sorry. Discussing again.  Keeping Yeah.  Facilitating.

Last question.  I'm amazed by the fact that I wrote an article call with Just Stop Oil in the headline, and I didn't what is what what does Just Stop Oil want? Because I've almost felt like I was being an idiot that I didn't realize exactly what the point is. Right. So yes.

So another reason why I joined is because of the ask. The ask was so simple and quite  moderate, if that makes sense. Um, the ask for just the foil is for all new oil and gas licenses to be canceled and for the government to Issue no new oil and gas licenses. That's it. It's not saying we need to immediately  straightaway stop driving.

You know, that's not the case. It's Okay. For no new oil and gas investment, essentially. Yes. And with the reserves that we've got currently, You know, we use that.

And during the to that period, we  we we kind of we we move and transition to renewable energy.  That's that's the  Sounds sounds pretty reasonable and amazed that I didn't even realize that. Right, Ian. I'm gonna keep going.  Um, that leaves James Curtis.

Just your perspective on this debate. How can activist how can activism be better communicated to affect change? I think that's the point. What do you reckon?  Yep.

Uh, so just, uh, something I want to clarify in case anyone else didn't know. An oil and gas license is a license To explore new oil opportunities. It's not a license to sell oil or something. I I just Googled that. Um, uh, so, uh, I think One of the things, though, though, that  I I I wish Just Top Oil would be kind of bit more clear on that because I also had to find out directly  from somebody I was speaking to from Just a Oil.

I didn't find out from any of the newspaper articles. And I think, yes, that's possibly misrepresent Haitian or miss or, you know, journalists not working quite as well except for the fact that somebody in this group who actually wrote an article and did not find that out. And I think that's maybe there's Some miscommunication going on there in terms of how to get that message across of like, this is our very simple demand. Um, and I think one of the things I like about that is that We need to break this down to simple demands. We need to break this down into kind of what not just what long term change do we want, but how do we get there? 

So one of the things I really like about, uh, Nexon's Rebellion is that the, uh,  you know, like, they seem to get incredibly well Structured, well, great communication team, uh, but they had quite a lot of broad it's a very I got an impression it's a very broad message of, Yep. Be aware that there is a climate crisis happening. Um, Just a World has a very clear demand and clear message of this very clear demand, but not a very clear message.  Um, and I think that to this those both of those courses are kind of so, uh, you know, demanding kind of general change or change from the government. And there's also, I think from my perspective,  um, one of the things we're seeing clearly kind of in industry and especially in investments is a kind of a Growing investment in green tech and and, uh,  uh, mission driven businesses with environmental Goals.

So other goals are a little bit environmental goals. And I think we are seeing a general consensus change towards,  Uh, focus on kind of our environmental future as a planet and as a society. Um, uh, so it So I I think in a way, a lot of the a lot of the conversation is working because that is a so, you know, that is a result of demand, and that is a result of kind of supplying that demand.  Uh, so I think there is there is so I I think there is some in terms of how, uh, behavioral change is happening, there is some hope there, I would say. Yes.

Thanks, James. To sleep in. Yes, Katie. I was gonna I was gonna go all circle to you so putting on my hands.  Thank you for the inspiration.

Yeah. I think there's a couple Definitely a blue light policy. Um, nearly all of the climate groups would have a blue light policy to let blue lights through. And I think, James, You absolutely hit the nail on the head around the misrepresentation or underrepresentation  of the message. There is almost No quarter given in most of the mainstream newspapers  around, uh, what they would call eco zealots. 

And it's only dressed up as people who are trying to break society in some ways rather than, uh, you know, pointing out Krusse pointing out that it's not perfect. And it partly is about putting way too much pressure on the environmental movement to justify everything. The example I always give is if I work for the NSPCC and I decided that, you know, we did some research and said there should be a child psychotherapist on Three, uh, children's ward in the hospitals across the UK. No one would start asking me how I'm gonna fund that, or What level of experience, or why are these things? They're just like, god, that's a really good idea.

We should really want to protect children's well-being.  But, yeah, we expect the environmental movement to not only create the fuss, but have all the answers and do everything perfectly. And that's far too much. And, You know, most of us are doing this as a side hustle. I have a full time job.

I don't know what Ian's doing after you I know you've just graduated, But there's lots of people who are doing this, uh, you know, alongside  a full life with their families, you know, with work, With other volunteering and also as well trying to make a living as well, I know that there's this mistake that we're all nice middle class people, but there's actually a lot of people who are Also, um, at the at the hard face of the cost of living crisis. So I do feel that we put so much expectation on that we we just simply don't put on other Pressure groups. And and I'm kind of interested to understand why that has happened. And I would say largely it's because we can't compete with the marketing of big oil and big business, And there is so much lobbying against. Look at the Public Order Act driven by policy think tanks in Tufton Street.

That is something we cannot compete  with. Sorry if I sounded a little angry there. I didn't mean to be angry. I just wanted to be clear about this this kind of Over expectation for for us and it's almost like we're trying to to knock guilt back and forth like a tennis ball here that We should feel guilty, but we're not quite good enough. You should feel guilty because, uh, we're not all vegan and given up cars and all the rest of it yet.

And I'm I'm just not sure that it's particularly helpful keeping us in conflict. But keeping us in conflict will benefit big business and, uh, the oil and gas companies.  Yeah. I mean, it's it's a terribly challenging thing, isn't it? Because your, uh, your exile, just above all, any any, um, any activist organization is taking action, which is causing conflict.

I mean, this point about guilt, I wrote down a few notes.  Um, how did one of you say it? Well, actually, Katie, you said it. It's like, is it I'll talk as of as a human being. Is it my guilt I'm dealing with, or is it that XR is putting guilt on me?

Well, I I think, you've it's my guilt. I feel guilty because of something you're doing because it highlights  what I'm not doing, doesn't it? I mean, any thoughts on How they actually oh, thumbs up. Any thoughts on how guilt works? I've never really thought about it.

I'm trying to think with my seven year olds If I can break it down to how a child feels guilty or, like, how does guilt operate? I don't know. That's maybe a deep question. Does anyone got any thoughts on  breaking down guilt.  I, uh, I'll just leap in just to sort of because I've been thinking about it.

I mean, I think one important thing is also to think  Obviously, guilt is an attention grabbing technique, but is it effective?  Has it been effective? Then I think maybe there's a case of needing to sort of really be a bit more reflective about what is working and what isn't working in terms of reaching the people that need to be reached, you know. I don't think anyone on this panel is gonna be, you know, fighting for the corner of big oil. You know, I think we can all agree that We need to make drastic change as fast as possible.

But in doing that, there's, you know, a responsibility to be really brutally honest about The effectiveness of current techniques. And, you know, I can just thinking about, yeah, maybe the Picasso painting wasn't damaged, But the Velasquez painting was damaged and that alienated the target audience for that action. Arguably, you know, it had the reverse effect. So it's a case of maybe not repeating  techniques That having been successful and and and thinking, and no one's claiming perfection here, but thinking about what is  A different way of trying to do the same thing.  And, you know, I think back to sort of even a group called the San Francisco billboard liberation firm.

Um, and they were active from the seventies all the way through to the nineties. And they were, you know, kind of undercover admin themselves, But what they would do is alter  billboards around the San Francisco Bay Area. Often, these guys were Designers who probably worked on the billboards in the day jobs, but, you know, they they would alter cigarette ads,  Um, to change the meaning subversively, you know, that was a series of, uh, branded cigarettes  And their slogan was, you know, I smoke facts because I'm realistic.  And what the San Francisco Billboard Liberation Front Did was at night, they would alter those billboards so that the captions said, you know, I smoke facts. I'm real sick.

And they had a series of sort of  guidelines by which they wouldn't actually permanently damage the billboards. They would use materials that would be easily removable,  um, and they had certain quality guidelines in that the quality of this old altered message Had to be as good as the original one. So it was seamless.  Um, and they do little things like appreciate that, like the people who were gonna be sent to sort of take down their alterations. We're just working guys, so they would just need them to create a fear up on the billboards as well as they're like, thank you. 

Um, but what they did was, you know, it was sort of constructive and inventive  and humorous,  But not technically vandalism in that they were never permanently altering anything. They were, you know, still are arguably committing a crime. Um, but it's it's those lines that, you know, no. I I think we're all aware that, you know, The oil companies have a fairly significant amount of sway over what is published in the broadsheet newspapers or Particularly the tabloid newspapers. So it's always gonna be an uphill PR battle because you're, you know, working with people who have vested interests.

But the more ammunition you give, you know, certain publications,  they're gonna latch onto things like vandalism.  And it's a case of maybe being a little bit  smarter isn't exactly the word I'm trying to think of, but, you know, trying to give them, Trying to outmaneuver the obvious headline. Right? The daily mail is gonna write an obvious headline if you smash a Velasquez painting and damage, You know, a priceless piece of art. But they don't give us a headline.

They don't give us a headline unless we do those, uh, larger pieces. There are I I can absolutely assure you, there are a hundred actions happening across the UK, and They will will make Nari a ripple in the public discourse because they are not dramatic.  I I'm I'm sorry to jump in. I do want to hear more. That's that's an absolutely valid point, and I'm not saying I'm you know, it's an easy solution at all, But is negative press and I, you know, I appreciate the intent is to stimulate debate,  But if it's if it's really really alienating people, the the the people that need to be converted, is it more counterintuitive?

Is it doing more harm than good? I guess. And, and I am figuring out that incident just because there's so many people I know Who would otherwise, for all intents and purposes, support the cause, who won't engage with it because of that type of action.  Um, that's the thing. That's the thing, though, isn't it?

It's it gives an excuse not to, Or at least in our own minds not to engage, um, in something because you go, oh, I I I don't support that that method. But then it goes back to the point of what,  Uh, Katie said it was interesting to hear, you know, why is the pressure on the activist group to come up with the solutions for this? It's something that affects Everybody and and what I will say about the the stunts is, um, they do annoy, um, but  they they kind of give this sense that we are Like you see in these disaster films where everything is starting to unravel, but people are still pretending that it's not, and you see these clear warning signs. So they are I think it works in that respect. It's creating this sense of,  okay, something needs to happen.

You know, people  Trying to get so um you know clear clearly that they happen to go to these extreme lengths. So that respect I think it works. It's just this issue isn't it about Is it actually then forcing people to take appropriate action? Um, probably not. But then that's why that's the that's the problem that we we all face and partly why the reason why I looked at this subject and thought I just don't I just don't know is the honest answer.

How you begin to get around that. And, again,  Um, I think I think Katie's points were interesting about going up against getting press attention against the, you know, these big companies and people People have invested interest in in things that are not a good and, yeah, it's it's kinda like a blunt instrument, but it might be the only instrument that these guys have at their Suppose I've no. I haven't really thought about it that way before, but it's it's interesting here. Austin, it fascinates me there that you said you feel ill equipped. You're a PR guy.

Right? Isn't what Katie talking about? PRs aren't they PR? What are they if they're not some form of effectively a a a public relations stunt? Am I am I missing something here?

Yeah. Well, that's I I completely get that. Yeah. Fighting for space and the tension, especially around something.  As important at this, when you've got limited resources, you know, the people that are part of it, like like was mentioned, have day jobs and, um, it shouldn't really be up to them.

So I I can see why they're doing it.  So because there's nothing else, nobody else has a a better idea, I guess, is the thing. But I I just don't think it's translating into from what I can see, because I get that as well. I speak to my friends,  Um, and they see these things that actually acts to alienate, but then I don't have an alternative. So, um, I guess that's why we're in the salon today to recognize.

Exactly. I mean, I love the fact I'm gonna push you on this because we've talked about PR ideas for for the documentary that that we did, which included putting balloon pink balloons in boxes is and all sorts of other I mean, if you were advising someone how to do something and it wasn't around guilt, What what could it be? Or can you think of any examples of something that could have played into guilt? Um, or maybe I'll let you think about it and give you a moment and go to someone else. But I Yeah.

I can't I can't begin to, um,  solve this issue. What I will say is having had to think about it, one of the groups that I I'm a big fan of, and I know it's different. It's a different playing field because it's it's it's almost well more well defined objective, but surface against sewage have been around for ages.  And, um, yeah, they're they're they've got  really useful tools. Like, they have a real time sewage map, which tracks, you know, the Charge and pollution around the UK.

So it's a useful resource, and it just illustrates just how out of hand this is. And it's but then again, this is, uh, it's sort of on a slightly smallest well, not slightly, Smaller scale, you know, has a is it has a clearly defined problem sewage. There's a villain, uh, the water companies. There's an impact that everyone can relate to swimming in, You know? Yep.

And and and the solutions, like, you you you feel like legislation or proper infrastructure  are within reaching distance. And so it makes like It being part of that, it seems like there's you can make a a difference. It seems achievable. Sometimes it can be the the aims can be so large and abstract. Like, for people like me, I go, Oh, I feel a bit intimidated by it, to be honest.

Um, so, yeah, that's, um, just chucking in my two cents here. And that that's great. I mean, Ian, I don't mean To put you on the spot, because I talked to you about a campaign that came out last week, but I don't know if you saw it. So I don't wanna put you on the spot. The the Olivia Olivia Bolivia coal mine add.

Did you see that? Because it's about oil. It seems pertinent. But if you didn't, then I'm assuming you didn't because you're saying No. No.

I I didn't. Okay. I don't know who else here saw it. Katie, did you see it? Of course.

I love Olivia Coleman. Okay. She could have my she She could have my kidney if she wanted it. Um, so no. I think that's brilliant.

And I think Richard Curtis but this is a classic example, isn't it? If you have a professional storyteller  With, um, decent resources, of course, they can make something beautiful, and people will watch it because it's Olivia Colman. How do you cut through When it's, you know, someone like me and a couple of other people, menopausal women, trying to make a difference on something, You know, you're you're going to have a lot of cut through. But it the Olivia Olivia coal mine, which is incredibly creative, I thought the one that they did with Richard Harrington and, um, of the other woman from Game of Thrones about banks and, uh, oil companies was also good. But then even The action, it's so hard.

The problem is the the enormity of the task is so,  It's so huge that even when you love a campaign and you I've got a rough idea. Okay. I have to do something. It's still quite difficult to figure out what do I actually do. Yeah.

Um, we have not many people here. Although with the Bolivia coal mine, I mean, from my perspective, although interestingly, I invited someone to come to this debate who Has a business uh, sorry. A a website that helps you to switch your banking to a bank that doesn't invest in oil. And she's connected to that organization that did the Bolivia Coal Mine. Because the action on that, I thought was, to me, was was quite clear.

It was check where your pension's invested.  But it's kind of it relies on the fact that you're not then demanding someone to do something or just post you're sort of planting a seed of getting them to think about something. So is that  doing? Or Um, well, I mean, if the if you're doing anything around following the money, that becomes it's sent very complex. So the company pension that I'm with, Example, talks about has different options, but then you get into bonds.

Um, and as soon as you're working with anyone to do with Vanguard and BlackRock, which the biggest investors in, um, oil, gas, and coal across the world, and you're then you're hiding things into bond markets. It's impossible. And, you know, even the most seasoned I mean, James here is, uh, probably understands way more about finance than I do, so I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert in that. But it becomes very challenging.  The XR stuff is around yeah.

We had three demands, act now, tell the truth, and be on politics. So we believe in citizens assemblies. We believe that, uh, politicians will never make the hard decisions that are needed because they just won't be reelected. If you take The correct information to a representative group of people and give them, uh, clear, unbiased information that, generally, they will make decisions Decisions that are for the benefit of their community and not for themselves. And I think that is a hopeful sign of of Extinction Rebellion and it is So beautiful, and it does draw in more voices.

And but, of course, that's incredibly complex because you're trying to explain citizens assemblies and and participatory democracy top of the fact that you you want people to understand that doing your bit has to be more than recycling.  Yes. So, you know, it it's Trying to create that cut through. It it's really about trying to nudge people along. So I'm scared and I'm worried.

Okay. I'm I'm gonna read that leaflet. Now I've read the leaflet. I'm going to watch something on YouTube or I'm gonna go to a meeting. Then I'm gonna maybe help write create create a banner, then I might hold the banner, then I might do something else.

And, you know, of course, you never have to go to blocking roads, and I know that that's very, You know, very, uh, famous for the stuff that we've done. But I do think that we have hope because we've made a difference. In Twenty nineteen, we were the first country in the world to declare a climate emergency, and that was after two weeks of disruption and a thousand arrests. Now I would say that achieved something. So Yep.

And but whether that was on the basis of guilt or whatever, I I don't know. Yeah. I, um, Ian, can I come over to you? Because we had a chat about, I was asking you about your perception of what Greta Thunberg did and because you were still at school at the point that was all happening. Because So I had a conversation with someone last night, and he  he was making a comparison between Elon Musk and Greta Thunberg, and I didn't didn't quite agree with the perspective.

It was an interesting chat.  Um, but to me, from my perspective as a forty something year old,  It made me feel as a parent like it was flipping  like, normally, a parent is telling their child what's right. And and seeing a child saying that back to me made me it didn't make me feel guilty. It made me spurred me to think about it more because I want my son to grow up in a better place, not a worse place. I'm interested as a student at the time. 

How, uh, did that about what was that experience like for you at at school? And did that feel like some kind of a movement from a young person's perspective?  Yeah. Okay. So so two, uh, two two things.

I I've realized what you're talking about, the Olivia Colman thing. I have seen it. It's it is great. So I'll talk about that a bit later on. I'll address your question. 

So,  yes.  Um, I I guess so. I I so During sixth form, I think it was in in the second year two thousand nineteen.  Um, I mean, we we first I first personally  got to I mean, question, but into my consciousness when I was seventeen, there was this  school strike, uh, school student strike. I think it was Maybe twenty eighteen, twenty  nineteen, um, where all the well, where where just school kids came out, so they they they left,  Um, they left their classrooms to to march, really, um, in their towns and in their cities wherever they were on on, Climate change.

Um, and it did feel like a movement. And I think, you know, seeing Greta Thunberg and, uh, things  The the things that she has done, I think for many young people, it is empowering because it's you know, you're seeing someone like yourself  Challenging, you know, adults, um, wearing suits and how you know, all that intimidating stuff And telling them what they're doing is wrong. So as you said, kind of, um, a role reversal in that sense. Uh, so it is empowering. It did feel like a movement.

And then that's not the finishing line. Then you've got to kick on. That's just something that that opens your eyes to things.  Um, so, yeah, in that in in that sense, it was great. Now, uh, I want to just quickly go back to I've got one question on that.

Yes. You said it felt like a moment. So do you I mean, when we were chatting, you said that you're you weren't a posh school, but you you had quite a politically engaged sick form. It sounded like it sounded a bit different to my sick form at school way back when. But,  Uh, do you feel that that amongst your peers, that's continued?

Or do you think people are like, oh, that was as part of something, and now I've just gotta get on with life, and this is the way life  No. I think we I mean,  I think my peers from from my my, uh, school then, we were We've now kind of gone on on our separate ways, but,  um, yeah. No. I think it wasn't just a moment in that Second and to to ignore later on. You know?

It's something to to continue and to to bring with going forward. And and Going forward, I know many many students went on to study, you know, politics or international relations at at university. You know?  I will discuss. And also to your point about just stop oil, it meant that you're walking through a park and someone asked you something about the environment, and you thought it was perfectly reasonable to go to a meeting.

Whereas, I don't know, with all honesty, pre COVID, when I was running around London, I'd probably have gone. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll look at that.

So I I think that's important. And you were gonna say about the coal mine thing as well? Or sorry. If you wanna respond to my Yes. I mean, uh, sorry.

What what was your original question?  I think that's the problem of a firehouse salon is I have no idea, and I I'm just drinking water. I've lost track. Um, but, uh, you were gonna talk about the oblivion home, which seems pertinent because it's about oil.  Uh, Yeah.

Just your thoughts on that and the action that that, you know, does something like that spur action, or is it just, Well, of course, we're we're talking about, uh, the pros and cons of just a point of like action or extinction rebellion like action. I mean, A lot of us, we end up doing this or getting in getting involved in these organizations because we see stuff like the,  Um, Olivia Colman video.  Um, that in itself is not just an action. It's a call for other people to do something about it. So It's it's interesting when it's when we start kind of saying, oh, well, this, you know, Jess or Accenture Rebellion should be doing  something else, something more creative like this when, in fact, that is the precursor  to us doing what we do. 

Um, I'm so so On on that point sorry. Sorry. I'm I'm allowed as a facilitator to be annoying and keep cutting in. But to both you and Katie, like,  I was chatting to a colleague of mine today, and he mentioned the movie that's just come out on Netflix called The End of the World, is it called? Has anyone seen it?

I have not seen it. No. No. So no one knows what I'm talking about. It's called Something Around the End of the World and highlighted to me that it had been produced by the Obama's production company. 

And so the idea that that I guess, I don't know where the lines are, but, uh, people with political views about race, about challenges that we're facing as a planet have created a feature film with, uh, Julia Roberts in it, and that that maybe is a powerful way of using culture to affect change. Am I understanding that that both with Extinction Rebellion would Extinction Rebellion do a documentary or a TV show or They have campaign, or is there a, like, we this is what we do, and that's for other people to do, and vice versa for just a boil. Is it we're just we're activists. We would never do other stuff. Sorry if I'm No.

Extinction Rebellion has had a number of documentaries done about them. In fact, also on Netflix, There's, um, and there have been some of the, you know, smaller scale things like finite, for example, that followed particular movements that was around the German coal mine. Um, but, uh, I you know, we we have produced, do. Uh, I mean, some of the follow on stuff from the, uh, actions are a beautiful mini documentaries. I mean, if you search the JPMorgan  Women's action about two years ago when about six women went in and tapped the glass early morning, um, of JPMorgan's offices. 

Um, and in fact, that's just coming to court in January.  Uh, then, you know, there are some really beautiful examples Of what's happened, and and like I said, refer back to the fact that I think Extinction Rebellion is very visual and creative. Um, may I just make one point? Sorry. Just so tangential to that is that We've been talking about extreme stuff.

I think there's a couple of points. There's a radical flank effect, isn't it, that we know that sometimes if you have really radical points, It will draw people into the other bits. A bit like that diffusion of innovation curve almost, but for activism. And so I think that, You know, Extinction Rebellion, Just Stop Oil, other radical groups will allow space and, um, motivation to have other conversations.  And that's it.

The other point is that it's not like we go in all guns blazing all the time. So I've been involved in a couple of actions at Havas, which is a media company, which She's just taken a, um, an account with Shell. Now why don't they just leave Shell behind? But actually, they haven't. So we went and we did a dye in in their foyer.

So we had about Thirty people bring your own bedsheet dressed up as corpses, and then we had, um, somebody from, uh, a gentleman who represented the Ogoni people from the Niger Delta. We We also had audio files of a gentleman from the United Delta whose lands have been polluted by Shell. And we're encouraging people To say, actually, we don't want to work from for Shell. There's loads of people that have us who have no desire whatsoever to work for a polluting Planet killing organization like Shell. But when we make a stink outside, it allows them to have more polite but uncomfortable questions inside.

And so, again, I would argue that it's around the radical organizations that give space and strength for other people to say, actually, not in my name. I'm not comfortable with this.  I I I yes.  I wanted to applaud that point. But they also made me think, like, that action In a way, it doesn't matter if that doesn't get picked up.

It's the people at work at Havas. Like, sometimes there's an action that might change behavior within one organization just by them experiencing it. I hadn't thought of that. This idea of in fact, I should know this from Howard. Go back to Howard's playbook, when he did ad campaigns, he'd run one execution once in one publication with a coupon.

He'd see what the response was, and then he did to write the next one. He He was a direct marketer. He wasn't a mass marketer. So the reality is, I think, we've talked about a number of examples where the media is unhelpful. It it repeats that Just Stop Oil has done something or Extinction Rebellion has done something, but then it slants it to whatever message it wants to make.

So The fact that you're saying  well, it's an example. Right? I wrote an article because Extinction Rebellion did some action on a little island that happens to be known by quite a lot of people.  So, yes, I I'm I I felt a bit of guilt, but, um, I thought that that's the type of action I I would I would call for more of. Amazing.

Um, unconscious I'll just add to that. One one final thing, Ashley, to just chuck in there on your point on, uh, Gossage, Small is beautiful. Right? That was always his thing.  Small can be beautiful, and targeting a small group of people like that.

Yeah. Huge can be hugely effective, and I think that's where this sort of stuff can really, um, really work. Yeah. It's James, I'm gonna come to you. I'm just gonna say one thing, which is Small is Beautiful is the topic of the next one of these that we're gonna do in the new year.

Very nicely connected. Very nice. Because I would love to talk about that now, but I'm gonna leave that to the next one, is the idea of living on a human scale and actually changing your perception as a human being and how you interact with world. I mean, Katie, I haven't taken anywhere near the same steps that you have, but I believe that buying stuff secondhand and reusing things and, you know, I I don't think you're buying uh, I don't know. I've got a car that's a secondhand car, and I'm gonna run it into the ground kind of attitude rather than thinking the next best thing is gonna solve stuff for me.

But, anyway, The next topic is gonna be about living on a human scale and thinking more about our our our our impacts and how by living more locally, potentially, that's another solution to this. I waffled James Curtis over to you. And in terms of time, for everyone that's listening, I put an hour and a half in for this, not because it's an hour and a half, but but Because what I wanted us to do was to start to reach some conclusions, some ideas, some thinking, and we're already starting to do that. So I think we'll go about another Ten minutes, if that's okay. But, James. 

Uh, okay. Um, so picking up on something that was Kind of mentioned, uh, a while back. Politicians  alright. So sorry. We got back.

Um,  there's a lot of, uh, conversations in here about kind of different types of that we're doing to make people feel guilty, make people affect change, targeting small organizations, big organizations. And I think those actually very frequently work. Um, one of my favorite recent examples is a YouTuber called John Green who started a campaign to, Uh, with his large following to get people's complaint about the pricing of tuberculosis medicine in parts of Africa and parts of the third world, and it was a successful campaign. It was like Rick, making this relatively unknown company as part of a bigger brand, um, much, you know, known for this bad thing and saying stop this bad thing, and they I think I know it's really good. So I think that campaign works.

I think, um, it was, uh, kind of this kind of activism that possibly Was a large part of why, uh, women got the vote, um, and part of the slave movement of the abolitionist movement as well. But one of the things that I've also been thinking about is About specifically the abolitionist movement is the economic impact. See, how how much easier it was to say, hey. This the slave trade is getting very expensive, and there's also these new founded and this new industrial methodology. And this that's much cheaper.

Why do why do we make this very easy decision of, you know, moving the slave moving away from saving towards industrialization. And I think that that pull factor, which was this was a that was a massively oversimplified point.  But, um, the pull factors available in the world to make these decisions easier, both on the individual and on the national scale, are useful to consider in the in these moments. So, uh, you know, what are the, you know, uh, the fact that as electric vehicles get, you know, get cheaper, it will be easier for consumers to think, hey. Why don't I just get an electric vehicle?

It's better with the environment, and it's cheaper. And I think that that's going to have, uh, an impact  on how this change can occur, how we can kind of prevent or, you know, uh, reduce, uh, global climate catastrophe.  Um, I kind of it's it's just a lot it's just that something that we haven't been discussed much in this conversation. And I think there is gonna be something you can do about it. I think more investments No.

Happening in, uh, greens in kind of green tech and, uh, green  businesses is going to have, uh, that is going to Have an impact there, and that's going to affect the the availability of different, um, options for consumers and for,  Yeah. Effectively effecting economic change and, uh, economic incentives is what I'm kind of just bringing up. I get it. Um, I've just realized one thing I've very rudely not done, which is thank you for everyone that's listening. Caroline has just sent me a question.

So I think it would actually be polite of me to say if you'd like to pose some questions in these last few minutes. Um, Caroline asked about,  Um, so she's works in marketing agencies about her question was, I wonder how XR measures success of their stunts. How do they decide what to do and when?  Have you got a response to that, Gauthi? Do you know?

Um, Yeah. I mean, actually, I really should have said that. It's not like I'm a representative  of EXARC, should I? So I suppose I mean, ultimately, the be that we felt that we won and that people changed. So I don't know.

For example, if Boca suddenly decides, yeah. We're not gonna invest in, uh, in oil and gas anymore. Um, I mean, some of it will we will actually see something happen. So we're we're, uh, heavily involved in the East African crude oil Pipeline, ECoP, which is a proposed, uh, crude oil pipeline, and we're trying to get insurance companies to pull out of underwriting That because if you cut the ties, if you if you tackle the enablers so if advertising companies aren't helping,  Um, the the nasty companies dress up their damage or if, um, if financing  Doesn't flow to these businesses. It just becomes too expensive a model, a bit like what James is saying.

It becomes too expensive and therefore, you have to find a different way of doing it.  Um, so we and when when things like that happen, when someone does say, yeah, we will not underwrite this anymore, we consider ourselves part of The the, uh, the victory, I guess. But I would say it's, you know, it's it's never over, I think. And, you know, For me, it would be I think a lot of the victory on on an individual day is when you have a a beautiful interaction with something, and I've been involved in In things  when people put stop and put their hand on our shoulder and will say what you're doing is really important and really needed. So For a lot of the things that you see and hear about on LBC about how people hate us, there's also a lot of people who go past and will join in for an afternoon, we Or we'll say thank you.

And that individual interaction is very powerful. Um, so I'm not sure in terms of whether there's gen General measurements, certainly column inches and getting on,  uh, big broadcast places where you can share your message is, of course, important. But, um, other than that, I guess it would be knowing that we fixed the the crisis. Yeah. And little firehouse salons.

Um, I don't know if anyone else has got questions from the audience. I can't get your voices to come up. You just message me if you do. Um, I just wanted to get around the table in kind of conclusion and and put a little challenge to you,  which you can well, hopefully, an idea, a thought about something from listening to what you've heard. And I'm slightly cheating because it's something Katie said to me the other day that made me think. 

But from your perspective as a PR person, as a financial modeler,  um, is there anything from this discussion that has  just made you think, actually, I'm gonna think about that a bit more. I'm gonna do something. And if anyone wants to go or I can lead the charge. Anyone got an idea? Or shall I? 

Okay. Okay. I think I'm going.  The thing the thing that Katie said the other day, which made me think was it was about, uh, flying  because I, um, I live in Ibiza. So I live on an island.

So there is a way of me getting off the island via boats. I drove that to England the other time, but that uses a petrol consuming car.  But we were talking about, um, The Extinction Rebellion action was about this jet set lifestyle, and I've thought it's come up. I've joined, um, an email list, which they bombarded me with messages. So I unsubscribed, unfortunately.

But it was about what if we could do something about private jets. And I thought,  If you could persuade the government in Ibiza to stop private jets on Ibiza, you would affect and impact the whole of Europe because it's a destination for private jets. If all the destinations for private jets restricted, then you would have a massive impact starting small and becoming big and beautiful. And I said to Katie that that that would never happen in Ibiza because the Matutis family They own all of the main nightclubs, including Pasha, and they're in the government, and they're in, you know, the tourism industry. And that's they'd never do it.

They'd never shoot themselves in the foot. But then I thought, hold on. Maybe there's someone in that family. You know? Maybe the the granddaughter, doesn't want to live on a planet which is completely destroyed.

And, actually, how would you start a conversation with that person, and how could they influence their uncle or their grandfather. 

 To be honest, I think that This conversation has reinforced the ideas I already had,, insofar as my, you know, as as as my beliefs of these are really good campaigns and these activists who are trying to affect change are doing the right thing each in their own way,  to try to effect change,  and I will continue to,  direct my energies towards affecting the same change from both the charity sector and from the, startup scene. 

Amazing. I I'm gonna write these down, and I'm gonna ring you in two weeks. We're gonna hold you to account. 

 Ian. I mean, you're already doing stuff, but is there something But you're gonna go and say to just stop oil that they need to do a TV series or something.

Is there any thoughts you've had from this? With us. A TV series. Yeah. A game show.

Um, Is there anything you've heard in this discussion that's made you just have a slightly different spin on your thinking?  I mean, I I guess so. I'm more open minded to to suggestions and and and creativity. I guess from from this is to just keep My mind open to other people's ideas and their suggestions because Yes.

Yeah. I mean, they might be right. I might be wrong. Amazing.

Who's next? And then I think we'll come to a close.  Oh, I'll be cut off of Katie. No. I just I would just say then one thing in terms of As guilt as a motivator, I will say that, um, I would really thank JSO and I think it's real I think it's a real sense that we haven't done enough, that we are seeing so many young people, and I think JSO is much more driven by young people Then Extinction Rebellion, and to see them  so pushed to have to make the, um, the to take the actions they do, I find it I find it very challenging, and I similar to James King, I would say there's lots of things that make me feel uncomfortable. 

But most of it makes me feel uncomfortable that I lack the courage to do a lot of what JSO have done and certainly for the ones who are in prison at the moment. Um, and let's not forget that there are  I think as one stage there are up to about a hundred people in prison,  protesters in the UK, which seems apparent to me. Uh, so, yeah, I would really thank, um, the contribution even while It causes this, um, personal dilemma, but I think that we have to create the personal dilemma for more and more people. Um, that would be my Remark. Well, I'm gonna write that down, the personal dilemma.

Because our conversation yester yesterday in preparation brought up personal dilemmas for me. It made me think about it. So, um, the power of, uh, really understanding someone's where someone's coming from and with a bit more depth. Uh, thank you, Katie. I've got confused who hasn't concluded.

Uh, is is it Austin?  Yeah. I'm sorry to break the format again, but, um, I I have to go and reflect on these things, I'm afraid. I'll be turning it over in my mind for the next, uh, few days, so I'm afraid, uh, we can Don't don't apologize. Yes.

That's fine. Don't apologize. I will expect a brilliantly written post in the coming days, uh, to continue to promote this discussion. So that's fine, Austin. Thank you.

And, um, well, James King,  Thanks so So much everyone for joining and talking, and I think it's been quite a lot of, you know, very challenging things to reflect on. Um, and it's hard, You know, I think a lot of what Katie said about that tension between what can you do to actually get that  Any level of press coverage is a very valid point and something I've been thinking a lot about recently, right, during the course of this Salon. And and, you know,  It's it's a hard task and it is unfair that it's sort of, you know, the responsibility is placed on  Organizations when it shouldn't be.

Um, you know, it should be a responsibility placed on society at large and governments, but I would just continue doing the thing that, you know, do not just with regards to this stuff, but in other areas of my practice is just try and think about how to get new audiences involved in the conversations I'm trying to talk about, you know, and how to preach beyond the converted. And that's really hard, it's a hard task, um, and it often involves a lot of late nights.  Um, but that's all we can do, really, is just keep on trying to think about how to do things in ways we haven't done them before,  And what is gonna be effective, and and and, you know, even coming back to the inspiration we've drawn on from the start, you know, like, Howard Famously would stay up for nights on end writing often very brief ad campaigns, um, and it was Torture for him at times because it's really hard work. Um, but, you know, I'm confident that those, you know, solutions will come slowly but surely, but at least minor break  groups. Nothing worthwhile is supposed to be easy, right?

It should always feel like a battle and it certainly does at the moment.  📍 Yes. You'll have to remind me, Katie, is Sarah still on this? Sarah, what what's that phrase? I'm gonna say it wrong.

So Sarah, um, Howard's daughter, was on the call, one of my dearest friends. So really lovely you joined us from LA at three in the morning or whatever it is. But to close that thought about I'm I'm gonna say it wrong, but it takes a dedicated band  of people to have an impact in the world. And so,  it has been an absolute pleasure to,  have a little chat with a dedicated band of people who, uh, I'm I'm setting you in motion. Well, Katie and Ian, you're doing it. I feel obligated did to help save this planet. So,  thank you so much everyone for your time. Thanks everyone that's listened in. And we shall be doing Another one of these mid January time. And, we'll focus on this topic of small is beautiful. Like, What are the small steps I can personally take? In this conversation, we've focused in on, you know, campaigns and messaging and comms. The next one, I just wanna think about  the idea of Small is Beautiful was an economist called EF Schumacher.

So if you wanna do any homework, look him up. Small is beautiful. Thanks, everyone. Have a lovely afternoon.